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During a scenario the question came up as to whether kneeling would be a free action or a movement action. Many of us considered it to be a free action but the DM ruled it as a move action. The rule book (p.195) only mentions kneeling once stating you receive a +2 to AC. I am wondering what your thoughts are on this since the rules do not specify.
During a scenario the question came up as to whether kneeling would be a free action or a movement action. Many of us considered it to be a free action but the DM ruled it as a move action. The rule book (p.195) only mentions kneeling once stating you receive a +2 to AC. I am wondering what your thoughts are on this since the rules do not specify.
Well, considering drop to the floor is a free action, I'd probably allow a character to kneel for free as well.
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If it gives you any sort of bonus it should probably be a move action. Otherwise you will have every character moving, attacking, and then kneeling at the end of their turn. Unless kneeling is free, but standing from a kneel is a move action.
Seeing Broddigan's post, one must consider than when prone you not only have +4 AC but -4 to attacks. It's a bit easier to fall down than slowly lower to ones knees.
In the end the simplest thing to do is say it is a free action to kneel, but a move action to stand again.
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During a scenario the question came up as to whether kneeling would be a free action or a movement action. Many of us considered it to be a free action but the DM ruled it as a move action. The rule book (p.195) only mentions kneeling once stating you receive a +2 to AC. I am wondering what your thoughts are on this since the rules do not specify.
You receive a +2 bonus to AC against ranged attacks, but a -2 penalty a gainst melee attacks.
I rule kneeling is a free action, but standing up from a kneeling position is a move action.
If it gives you any sort of bonus it should probably be a move action. Otherwise you will have every character moving, attacking, and then kneeling at the end of their turn.
Well, dropping prone also gives you an AC bump vs. ranged attacks, and it's a free action.
Unless kneeling is free, but standing from a kneel is a move action.
Yeah, that's the way I'd run it, sorry, should have specified that.
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I think the question comes into play is how is kneeling defined. A person could drop to one knee and be kneeling, or they could drop to both knees and be kneeling; but dropping to one knee I would say cost a free action and dropping to both knees would cost a movement. It is easier to hit the ground with one knee, but a person would take a little more time to drop to both knees.
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I think the question comes into play is how is kneeling defined. A person could drop to one knee and be kneeling, or they could drop to both knees and be kneeling; but dropping to one knee I would say cost a free action and dropping to both knees would cost a movement. It is easier to hit the ground with one knee, but a person would take a little more time to drop to both knees.
It's a little too complicated for me.
I'd say that Kneeling is a free action BUT you cannot run (no more than double your speed then)
Ok dropping prone is a free action that does not provoke an AOO.
So I would conclude that dropping to a kneel is a free action that also does not provoke an AOO.
Standing from prone is a move action that provokes.
Standing from Kneel is a lot easier so I would still require the move action but allow it to not provoke.
that's my opinion on it.
This is how I'd rule it as well. I'd probably also allow you to stand from kneeling as part of regular movement at the cost of 10' of speed or something.
Yeah, +1 for Kalyth. As someone who's played Amtgard for quite a while, you can really see where armor penalties, AoOs, and disarm rules come into play. I have to agree that standing from kneeling is a move action, that does not provoke, and is free to enter.
I've seen people do a running-kneeling-charge, sliding onto their knees at the end of their movement to hack beneath a shield.
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I tried it this way, but it got a bit fussy:
Stand from Kneeling - move action, provokes
Kneel from Prone - move action, *does not* provoke.
-- This let someone mitigate being kocked prone in a kind of compromise between 3.5/Pathfinder 'you're prone you're screwed' way of handling it, and the 4E 'just get up' way of doing it. You can cut your +4/-4 to +2/-2 and take a swing without getting an AoO from the adjacent enemy, *but* at the additional risk that now the adjacent enemy could trip you when you later try to rise from kneel to standing.
That seemed more realistic to me and gave the player more tactical options and made for more cinematic close-quarter fights, but like I said, it got fussy.
This is something rare in my games, but when it does happen, I usually go with for each knee on the ground, it costs 5' of movement (so a human kneeling on both knees could stand and move up to another 20' -if in light or no armor), with no attacks of opportunity.
Fast and easy.
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Ok dropping prone is a free action that does not provoke an AOO.
So I would conclude that dropping to a kneel is a free action that also does not provoke an AOO.
Standing from prone is a move action that provokes.
Standing from Kneel is a lot easier so I would still require the move action but allow it to not provoke.
that's my opinion on it.
+1 - this was my take as well. I think this is the simplest. I really hating futzing around with additional movement - it doesn't make sense that a dwarf gives up 1/4 their movement for standing from a kneel and a human gives up 1/6 - heck, the dwarf has less distance to travel! :P
+1 - this was my take as well. I think this is the simplest. I really hating futzing around with additional movement - it doesn't make sense that a dwarf gives up 1/4 their movement for standing from a kneel and a human gives up 1/6 - heck, the dwarf has less distance to travel! :POk dropping prone is a free action that does not provoke an AOO.
So I would conclude that dropping to a kneel is a free action that also does not provoke an AOO.
Standing from prone is a move action that provokes.
Standing from Kneel is a lot easier so I would still require the move action but allow it to not provoke.
that's my opinion on it.
Yes it sounds quite simple.
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Beh! Just call it mechanically prone (but really kneeling) and leave it at that. I know I don't need more rules to remember, (and have my players argue with me about) while running a combat.
Unless you really feel that your combats are too simple and move too fast, then by all means introduce a kneeling mechanic.
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I feel it should be a swift action for both kneeling and recovering.
Going prone is a free action but recovering is a move action. With kneeling you are not gaining the benefits of being prone but you are also not incurring the penalites. Kneeling is always a choice, you cannot be driven to your knees by anything mechanically gamewise.
Making both swift actions prevents you from performing another swift action without hampering the rest of your turn, and demonstrates how quickly kneeling and recovery can be performed.
There are several good videos and articles on Iaido, showing how quickly a trained fighter can go from kneeling to attacking while drawing his weapon.
I'm not saying our characters are all sword fighting masters, but if someone is going to practice sitting down in combat, I think they would have practiced standing back up.
I also do not believe getting up from kneeling should provoke an AoO. While prone you are using all your limbs to get back upright while either starring up at the sky or looking at the ground, while kneeling your arms are free to deliver and deflect blows and your torso is already upright with your eyes looking around you.
P.S. I think going from prone to kneeling should be the same as standing up, there should be no way to cheat your opponents out of their AoO from knocking you down nor gain any extra movement by kneeling first.
P.P.S Being that this thread is almost 2 years old, I'm kind of shocked that no one with a lil golem next to their name has commented or made a ruling.
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Bump
just add alittle more complexity, does kneeling incur a penalty to dexterity?
In all the years I've spent gaming, the only time I've seen characters kneel was before a king and they weren't in combat with him.
There are other appropriate times to kneel.
just add alittle more complexity, does kneeling incur a penalty to dexterity?
Prone doesn't why should Kneel?
It is easier to roll while kneeling then Prone: thus to add complexity it should add a bonus to dexterity.But anyhoo, Kneel should be move action to stand (no provoke), move action to drop to kneel (no provoke). Move action to kneel from prone (provoke).
I've used kneel in a game before (remember you can't shoot while prone with every weapon but you can with kneel).
Kneel is on the GM screen, but it, nor the core rule book, seem to have anything as to what action it is, or if it provokes.
I've had one player who was knocked prone state that if he went to kneeling one round, & to standing the one following it would not provoke.
Any one know if there is likely to be an official rules calling on it?
I tried it this way, but it got a bit fussy:
Stand from Kneeling - move action, provokes
Kneel from Prone - move action, *does not* provoke.-- This let someone mitigate being kocked prone in a kind of compromise between 3.5/Pathfinder 'you're prone you're screwed' way of handling it, and the 4E 'just get up' way of doing it. You can cut your +4/-4 to +2/-2 and take a swing without getting an AoO from the adjacent enemy, *but* at the additional risk that now the adjacent enemy could trip you when you later try to rise from kneel to standing.
That seemed more realistic to me and gave the player more tactical options and made for more cinematic close-quarter fights, but like I said, it got fussy.
It'd might make things more dynamic and less heated to say
Kneel from Standing - free action, does not provoke
Stand from Kneeling - move action, does not provoke
Prone to Sitting up - move action, does not provoke
Sitting up to Stand -move action, provokes
Sitting up to Kneeling -move acton, does not provoke
That way you have two modes that give the same penalty/bonus to AC that function differently from an attack of opportunity standpoint. It avoids arguments over how deftly you could avoid openings given whether you voluntarily put yourself in a less defensible position or not.
Did you kneel to present a smaller target for ranged attacks? You're probably in a good position to get up without presenting an opening to the guy who just charged you.
Did you sit up to defend yourself or get caught in melee while sitting down? You might be able to defend yourself a little better then if you are flat on your arse or your face.
Did you just spend two move actions to avoid presenting openings for your opponent after he tripped you? Seems fair, thats an entire round's worth of actions and you're still at -2 AC to his melee attacks.
Sitting up to kneeling is a very hard-to-make transition. One leg needs to go from in front of you to bent and partially behind you, and the other needs to bend, and both bends are into the ground, so there's no leverage. It's trivial to go from prone-face-down to kneeling, and hard to do it from prone-face-up. Rolling over us easy, but probably would provoke, and who wants to add the complexity of "I trip him onto his back", "no, he falls onto his face instead"?
As a compromise between face up and face down, I'd say prone to kneeling would be a move action that provokes, which makes sense, but doesn't make it any better than just standing up. To compensate, I'd say that going from a kneel to standing is a free action that can be taken as part of movement (even a 5' step).
Sitting up to kneeling is a very hard-to-make transition. One leg needs to go from in front of you to bent and partially behind you, and the other needs to bend, and both bends are into the ground, so there's no leverage. It's trivial to go from prone-face-down to kneeling, and hard to do it from prone-face-up. Rolling over us easy, but probably would provoke, and who wants to add the complexity of "I trip him onto his back", "no, he falls onto his face instead"?
As a compromise between face up and face down, I'd say prone to kneeling would be a move action that provokes, which makes sense, but doesn't make it any better than just standing up. To compensate, I'd say that going from a kneel to standing is a free action that can be taken as part of movement (even a 5' step).
I guess that my martial arts background colors my judgement of what is difficult or not in terms of maneuvering from one position to another on the ground.
I think you could stay in the same five foot square and roll backward or foreword without leaving yourself open for a blow if you spent half your attention in a six second span doing it. But that would require some acrobatics training, maybe 3 ranks or so? Or an acrobatics check to balance, DC 15 maybe?
For simplicity's sake, if you want to add "face or back" complexity to tripping I'd say you can choose to land on your back unless you are denied your dexterity modifier to AC, in which case you must land on your face, and that you could not sit up from being prone on your face without provoking an attack of opportunity. thus
Kneel from Standing - free action, does not provoke
Stand from Kneeling - move action, does not provoke
Prone Face up to Sitting up - move action, does not provoke
Sitting up to Stand - move action, provokes
Sitting up or Hands and Knees to Kneeling - move acton, does not provoke
Prone Face Down - Can only stand up as a move-equivalent action provoking an attack of opportunity.
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The number of people here who think hat standing from a kneeling position should be a move action is astonishing. Do you really think hat it would take 6 whole seconds to stand up from being on one knee? Or that you could cover 30 feet I. The time it takes someone to stand up? if you can drop to the floor prone as a free action, then it only makes sense that you could drop to one knee as a free action, and personally I would make standing from kneeling a swift action. Whether or not either provokes an AoO is debatable, but I would suggest that standing probably would, whilst kneeling wouldn't.
Why. Why would you bump this thread from EIGHT YEARS AGO.